Web Hosting Talk Australia : General Forums : Lounge Bar : A community forum ?

[Albator]

I ask this because WHT AU appears to be becoming less and less of one

Yes nostalgia may not be what it used to be but I remember when if someone posted asking for help or advice about something then if someone couldn't help them they simply did not post

If they could help directly - they did and provided the information or answer right there in the the thread

If they knew someone else who could help they provided their details so the OP could get in touch with them directly

It was the same with service requests - If you provided the service being requested you provided details of your services and usually a price and or a link to further information on your site

All this has changed

Now we see the following as common place

1. The Predator

Service requests meet with standard responses where the same copy and paste is done in every thread and are followed up with a PM instead of a request for further information or further queries as to the OP's needs in the thread

Ultimately this leads to pressure selling over the phone which is the whole objective - to get the prospect into one on one contact to - close the deal.

The other reason for the "personal" approach is when the "host" doesn't even provide the requested service themselves and intends to onsell the service from someone else's site, add literally a couple of $$ to the price and pass it off as their own service.

How do I know this?

Because I have called out people - one in particular, for copying and pasting other people's specs eg on a dedicated server and then adding $20 per month to the price

Because I have spoken to our own clients who have been victims of what they describe as the "hard sell" on the phone and one recounted that the person in question would "not take no for an answer and was saying anything it took to get the sale" She even told me that despite herself she felt intimidated and gave in and signed up because it was the only way she felt she could get off the phone with them

Sure you can say that everyone is trying to make a $ and everyone has their own "business practices" but I say that anyone who can't publicly post what they are offering and expose it to the scrutiny of the WHT AU "Community" is operating under questionable morals

2. Masked Nepotism

This is where someone from one organisation posts recommending another organisation as if they are a neutral party when in fact both organisations have a direct relationship with each other.

The therefore have a vested interest in the other's success but they do not disclose this information in their post and instead post in a way that represents one organisation as being an unrelated satisfied customer of the other

3 Incestuous chatter

This is a new one that has raised its head again in the last couple of weeks where multiple employees of the one organisation multiple post in the same thread and start having a public chat about something when they are obviously talking outside the forums about the same thing - the objective of this of course is simply to continue pumping their own logo into threads as many times as possible from multiple employees in an outwardly innocent manner as if they never communicate other than through threads on this forum - spam

Now of course all of the above appear to be becoming more and more the rule rather than the exception and how they are handled (if at all) are matters for the mods and their owners

But I feel they are also very much matters for the community as a whole

I post this because I see the above trends as leading wht au down a very bad path and would like to know others thoughts and the public thoughts of the moderators

Over the weekend I pulled up people doing 2 of the above tactics and my posts this morning had gone along with the replies I received - I was given no notification of the deletions and don't even know which mod it was who deleted them

So, lets bring these things into the open for discussion in the spirit of other threads which look at the future of WHT AU and what it will become and where it is headed

Oh and I intentionally posted this here and not in the providers private slanging section as it involves everyone who is a member of WHT AU both users and providers

Thoughts please ladies and Gentlemen and let's try to keep it civil

Cheers
Angus

[AndrewK]

I'll address your three points:

1) I agree that I would like to see all offers posted in public. I've never liked people sending offers etc via PM and I know if I was looking for offers for something, I would (and have in the past) ignored PM offers unless I've requested them. However, there is no rule that says they can't offer via PM (unless the user specifically requests it). It is up to the user to consider all offers, regardless of how they are received.

2) Absolutely, I personally think this should be a bannable offence. It annoys me greatly when someone gives what looks like a personal recommendation for another company but is actually financially involved in some way or will benefit through the referral. It is very dodgy to say the least and it is not an ethical business practise. However, it is hard in some cases to prove that they are indeed involved with another company.

3) Well, if you see this happening please report the posts. If it looks like this is happening, we'll delete the posts. Again, it is hard to tell though so don't always expect an action if you do report it


As for your two threads that you had posts deleted - I deleted them the thread asking for Windows guru's; the poster had specifically said to PM him if they know of any Windows guru's, and even if he didn't, as I said above I think that it is still legitimate (although frowned upon personally) to do so.

I assume the other thread you are talking about is the 5 dedicated server request one? If so, you're post and the post you were replying to were both deleted.

[Gary]

Originally Posted by Albator

Oh and I intentionally posted this here

Your forgot the Lounge?

Originally Posted by Albator

Service requests meet with standard responses where the same copy and paste is done in every thread

No nostalgia required there. If the request is nothing out of the ordinary, providers have always posted pretty much the same thing. Some people put a lot of formatting in to their replies, and you don't honestly think that in time gone by and for years to come, these replies are written on the spot? We used to use templates for advertising, and for replying to different types of general requests. That's not predatoriness, it's an effect use of one's time.

Originally Posted by Albator

Nepotism

I love that word.

Originally Posted by Albator

Incestuous chatter

Are you smarting from the absolute thumping the Brits copped last night in the RLWC? Grumpy old goat you are.

You're welcome to chat with Steve on here Angus. Folks from within the same organisation, but working in different cities/countries have been doing this for years. Nothing new here.

G

[Albator]

Originally Posted by Gary

Your forgot the Lounge?

Sure did

Originally Posted by Gary

No nostalgia required there. If the request is nothing out of the ordinary, providers have always posted pretty much the same thing. Some people put a lot of formatting in to their replies, and you don't honestly think that in time gone by and for years to come, these replies are written on the spot? We used to use templates for advertising, and for replying to different types of general requests. That's not predatoriness, it's an effect use of one's time.

You missed the point entirely. I am talking about standard you can contact us through any of these mediums replies not ones that provide their services plans etc in fact I believe I specifically mentioned the difference

Originally Posted by Gary

Are you smarting from the absolute thumping the Brits copped last night in the RLWC? Grumpy old goat you are.

Obviously your age is starting to show and you need a new hearing aid and glasses to distinguish between UNGELAAND and Great Britain - Despite the fact they still can't seem to come up with their own anthem which was as long as my interest lasted lol

Originally Posted by Gary

You're welcome to chat with Steve on here Angus. Folks from within the same organisation, but working in different cities/countries have been doing this for years. Nothing new here.

Yup sure but the fact we are constantly on ICQ and the phone kind of negates the need for that but I can understand what you are saying where obviously the people in an organisation never communicate with each other about what is going on around them and their only source of communication is a public forum

Geez wouldn't that actually make it kind of hard to work effectively but clearly you feel it is standard practice in Narnia

Cheers
Angus

[Gary]

Originally Posted by Albator

You missed the point entirely.

Nope, but "how" someone advertises is their own perogative. A few lines of text in the classifieds advertising "PC repairs" is not going to be as effective as a full colour, three column advert listing a wide range of services, but each to their own I say.

If someone lists their requirements, there's nothing wrong with simply saying "we can do that". It might not be as appealing to the OP as some more blurb about you, but it still let's them know who you are.

We're not about to start dictating how folks can respond to requests.

On a semi-related note, there was talk a few years ago about implementing a standard form for advertising on WHT-US. There's a vB mod floating around where we could set the fields and have all advertising following the same pattern (entity registration, years in business, server location...right through to individual plan specs. The idea got canned pretty quickly though.

Originally Posted by Albator

their only source of communication is a public forum

It's not hard to think of situations where it might be appropriate (e.g. someone clarifying or updating something somebody else has posted), but as usual if you see something that stresses you out too much, report it.

G

[Martin]

Should it be obvious who the predator is?

If the tactics you have described are true then maybe there needs to be some rules implemented that enforce a lot more transparency.

[AndrewM]

I get the feeling you've got a problem with someone such as Hightek? I do agree with you on all points though..

[perlboy]

I don't mean to point out the obvious but a 'community forum' by definition includes a whole bunch of people chatting with a proportion of them spinning bulls**t.

Just cause someones bs is now linked to another persons bs doesn't really make it any less bs. If a customer is 'duped' by a hard sell or can't see through the smoke and mirrors and see someone has just lifted one persons price and resold it that really is their problem. Realistically a VERY large chunk (and I mean, VERY large) of people on here (re)selling dedicated servers are in one way or another associated with the monolith that is Dedicatedservers.net.au. Should we stop everyones shameless reselling of their products? No, cause then the number of REAL competitors would shrink dramatically.

Just my 2c,

Stu

[hightekhosting]

Originally Posted by AndrewM

I get the feeling you've got a problem with someone such as Hightek? I do agree with you on all points though..

Oh yea, of course...who else

Do I let it affect me? Bah, why bother, really!

As Gary said, it should not be dictated how any one provider can respond to requests. I mean what are we? Robots who all have to go under the same command?

It's not bloody whirlpool for christ's sake!

Sure, I can agree on some points, but on others I don't either.

Each provider is going to respond in their own way, be it by request of further communication via alternate methods from the OP or publicly posted information. It's what makes us all unique and each business different.

If the OP chooses, no matter the posted content, to contact a provider direct, then that's entirely the OP's choice. If a followup PM is sent and the OP isn't interested, who said they are forced to reply?

No-one!

If the OP did not want to contact the provider that posted "hey, contact us via these methods", then they don't have to either. There is nothing in the rules about this, and until this ruling is made, both myself and a number of other providers on here will continue to respond at our own accord and in whatever fashion may be considered necessary at the time.

I can totally agree with what AndrewK has mentioned about the OP and PM offers etc. Some providers (I will not mention names, but one large player springs to mind) prefer to email quotes to clients as they are confidential and specific quotes to the clients needs. They also like to speak with the client on the phone to get a more personal feel and relationship with the client, no, not to "push" and sell, but to work with the client and get to understand their requirements.

I don't see anything wrong with this practice and if people choose that way to operate their business, who am I...or even you for that matter, to judge?

We all choose to run our businesses our own ways, advertise our own ways, market, discuss and offer in our own ways. We all have advantages and disadvantages in different areas. It's what keeps this market unique and "spicy".

If you don't like how someone else chooses to run their business, advertise or make an offer, fine, but I really don't see the need to stand on a soap box about it either.

Regards,

Dale

[GavLewis]

Originally Posted by hightekhosting

As Gary said, it should not be dictated how any one provider can respond to requests. I mean what are we? Robots who all have to go under the same command?

Agreed, there shouldn't be a set method of how we should reply to a thread. If the OP doesn't like it then they won't contact you.

btw... Where'd my post in the dedicated server requests thread go....

[Cheyne]

Originally Posted by Albator

1. The Predator

I actually agree but disagree with this one.

I don't think that people should be able to post requests, and then have providers forced to display in public what the "offer" is, for a couple of reasons.

The person asking shouldn't be asking for a price, they should be asking about capacity.

eg. "I'm in the market for 10 dedicated servers, with 2TB of bandwidth, can anyone supply this?"

Then the answers should be either a yes or a no, and told to contact them via the appropriate sales channels.

There is no benefit in hosts starting a price war, because what happens is one host makes an offer, another comes in after them with a better offer, and so on until the person gets everything for $1.

Then other customers see what went on, and start their own thread to get rock bottom prices from silly resellers who try to big note themselves.

All this kind of behaviour does it degrade the industry as a whole, and sets a dangerous benchmark for "standard" pricing which for most is unsustainable.

2. Masked Nepotism

I know you're referring to Gav's post in this case, but let me explain something to you.

Gary's rules are that you cannot represent two companies on the one account, even if you work for two companies. You also cannot operate two separate "rep" accounts.

I asked him about this a few weeks ago.

Gav has employment agreements with both companies. I have employment agreements with both companies (I also own the other one).

COVE doesn't sell wholesale services, which is why Gav was referring them back to red rack.

In light of this, I have had to get Michael and Craig on here to become reps for red rack to ensure this isn't an issue for the mods.

But as for others, there are a few who are in each others pockets, but that's just how they operate their business. Adding a few dollars on to a dedicated box and reselling it is certainly nothing new.

3 Incestuous chatter

I think this is more to do with the fact that the rules here are a little more catering for "off topic" chatter within a thread, which is a good thing, as it brings back some of the "community" feel you think has been lost.

On a couple of occasions I've posted talking directly to providers who I am friends with. It makes the conversation more interesting, and often provides some insight and knowledge from another perspective.

I mean, wouldn't you rather see hosts getting along, then *****ing at each other?

Cheyne

[Albator]

On a couple of occasions I've posted talking directly to providers who I am friends with. It makes the conversation more interesting, and often provides some insight and knowledge from another perspective.

I was referring to people from the same organisation chatting among themselves and repeating /backing each other up

[Albator]

Gav has employment agreements with both companies. I have employment agreements with both companies (I also own the other one).

Then a simple reference to that other company saying the OP should check them out would have sufficed in lieu of using the words "our wholesaler"

[Cheyne]

Originally Posted by Albator

I was referring to people from the same organisation chatting among themselves and repeating /backing each other up

Well that's fair enough then, but I don't recall seeing any posts of this nature.

Do you have any examples we can learn from? Perhaps those doing it don't even know they're doing it.

[Albator]

Originally Posted by Cheyne

Do you have any examples we can learn from? Perhaps those doing it don't even know they're doing it.

Clearly LMAO